Comments on: Are the critics finally starting to get it? http://telicthoughts.com/are-the-critics-finally-starting-to-get-it/ An independent blog about intelligent design Thu, 08 Jan 2009 17:35:22 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.6.3 By: nullasalus http://telicthoughts.com/are-the-critics-finally-starting-to-get-it/#comment-149617 nullasalus Fri, 02 Nov 2007 00:07:56 +0000 http://telicthoughts.com/are-the-critics-finally-starting-to-get-it/#comment-149617 Some anti-ID people I know (TEers, no less) have tried to play off their own "surprise" at Behe's acceptance of evolution and common descent as him modifying his views and becoming increasingly convinced that ID is wrong. I've pointed out to them that he's been on record as believing in both for quite awhile, and they get irritated and quiet. Just anecdotal stuff, but it does seem people's surprise has less to do with actually not knowing at times, and more to do with wanting to twist Behe's view as much as possible. Some anti-ID people I know (TEers, no less) have tried to play off their own "surprise" at Behe's acceptance of evolution and common descent as him modifying his views and becoming increasingly convinced that ID is wrong. I've pointed out to them that he's been on record as believing in both for quite awhile, and they get irritated and quiet.

Just anecdotal stuff, but it does seem people's surprise has less to do with actually not knowing at times, and more to do with wanting to twist Behe's view as much as possible.

]]> By: bFast http://telicthoughts.com/are-the-critics-finally-starting-to-get-it/#comment-149599 bFast Thu, 01 Nov 2007 23:42:03 +0000 http://telicthoughts.com/are-the-critics-finally-starting-to-get-it/#comment-149599 I think Miller is looking for a way to become an IDer and save face at the same time. Like I've always said, Miller is an IDer in denial. I think Miller is looking for a way to become an IDer and save face at the same time. Like I've always said, Miller is an IDer in denial.

]]> By: Pez http://telicthoughts.com/are-the-critics-finally-starting-to-get-it/#comment-149079 Pez Thu, 01 Nov 2007 04:19:08 +0000 http://telicthoughts.com/are-the-critics-finally-starting-to-get-it/#comment-149079 My "genuine surprise" is that Miller keeps arguing against Behe's position, and is surprised by it, when he knew this ten years ago. <blockquote>[Behe] has concluded that the Earth is several billion years old, that evolutionary biology has had "much success in accounting for the patterns of life we see around us (1)," that evolution accounts for the appearance of new organisms including antibiotic-resistant bacteria, and who is convinced that all organisms share a "common ancestor."In plain language, this means that Michael Behe and I share an evolutionary view of the natural history of the Earth and the meaning of the fossil record; namely, that present-day organisms have been produced by a process of descent with modification from their ancient ancestors. Behe is clear, firm, and consistent on this point. For example, when Michael and I engaged in debate at the 1995 meeting of the American Scientific Affiliation, I argued that the 100% match of DNA sequences in the pseudogene region of beta-globin was proof that humans and gorillas shared a recent common ancestor. To my surprise, Behe said that he shared that view, and had no problem with the notion of common ancestry. </blockquote> http://www.millerandlevine.com/km/evol/behe-review/index.html My "genuine surprise" is that Miller keeps arguing against Behe's position, and is surprised by it, when he knew this ten years ago.

[Behe] has concluded that the Earth is several billion years old, that evolutionary biology has had "much success in accounting for the patterns of life we see around us (1)," that evolution accounts for the appearance of new organisms including antibiotic-resistant bacteria, and who is convinced that all organisms share a "common ancestor."In plain language, this means that Michael Behe and I share an evolutionary view of the natural history of the Earth and the meaning of the fossil record; namely, that present-day organisms have been produced by a process of descent with modification from their ancient ancestors. Behe is clear, firm, and consistent on this point. For example, when Michael and I engaged in debate at the 1995 meeting of the American Scientific Affiliation, I argued that the 100% match of DNA sequences in the pseudogene region of beta-globin was proof that humans and gorillas shared a recent common ancestor. To my surprise, Behe said that he shared that view, and had no problem with the notion of common ancestry.

http://www.millerandlevine.com...

]]> By: MikeGene http://telicthoughts.com/are-the-critics-finally-starting-to-get-it/#comment-148992 MikeGene Thu, 01 Nov 2007 01:26:25 +0000 http://telicthoughts.com/are-the-critics-finally-starting-to-get-it/#comment-148992 I like the Miller quote: <blockquote>But the book contains a genuine surprise"”a blanket concession to what nearly all Americans would regard as the core of Darwin's theory: the notion of common descent. </blockquote> LOL! Miller has been arguing with Behe for <strong>10 years </strong>and he just figured out that Behe accepts common descent. What surprises Miller is something many of us noted <strong>years</strong> ago. Sad. I like the Miller quote:

But the book contains a genuine surprise"”a blanket concession to what nearly all Americans would regard as the core of Darwin's theory: the notion of common descent.

LOL! Miller has been arguing with Behe for 10 years and he just figured out that Behe accepts common descent. What surprises Miller is something many of us noted years ago. Sad.

]]> By: stunney http://telicthoughts.com/are-the-critics-finally-starting-to-get-it/#comment-148884 stunney Wed, 31 Oct 2007 22:27:27 +0000 http://telicthoughts.com/are-the-critics-finally-starting-to-get-it/#comment-148884 Bradford wrote: <blockquote>A classic example of a critic setting up his own strawman which he then valiently destroys. You don't have to eliminate natural processes to infer design. To the contrary, it is natural processes and nature itself that suggest design.</blockquote> Perhaps Pee Zee Myarse has never heard of the Empire State building.:mrgreen: Bradford wrote:

A classic example of a critic setting up his own strawman which he then valiently destroys. You don't have to eliminate natural processes to infer design. To the contrary, it is natural processes and nature itself that suggest design.

Perhaps Pee Zee Myarse has never heard of the Empire State building.:mrgreen:

]]> By: nullasalus http://telicthoughts.com/are-the-critics-finally-starting-to-get-it/#comment-148883 nullasalus Wed, 31 Oct 2007 22:23:56 +0000 http://telicthoughts.com/are-the-critics-finally-starting-to-get-it/#comment-148883 The funny thing is, the people least in favor of calling Behe an evolutionist are PvM and company. I doubt Behe himself will be up all night, angsting over the idea that people think he believes in evolution. But PZ Myers could barely keep himself from sticking the creationist (cretinist lol) label on Ken Miller. The funny thing is, the people least in favor of calling Behe an evolutionist are PvM and company. I doubt Behe himself will be up all night, angsting over the idea that people think he believes in evolution. But PZ Myers could barely keep himself from sticking the creationist (cretinist lol) label on Ken Miller.

]]> By: Bradford http://telicthoughts.com/are-the-critics-finally-starting-to-get-it/#comment-148832 Bradford Wed, 31 Oct 2007 20:50:33 +0000 http://telicthoughts.com/are-the-critics-finally-starting-to-get-it/#comment-148832 From the link: (vintage PvM): <blockquote>Well, if Behe can call Miller an intelligent design proponent because of his Christian faith, showing that ID really is all about religion, then it seems that it is not more than fair that we call Behe an evolutionist for his acceptance of common descent, and his somewhat self-contradictory claim that after God set it all in motion, evolution could very well have played itself out via purely natural processes of regularity and chance. But if that is the case then ID, which is based on eliminating such natural processes to infer design seems to have lost its claim to it</blockquote> A classic example of a critic setting up his own strawman which he then valiently destroys. You don't have to eliminate natural processes to infer design. To the contrary, it is natural processes and nature itself that suggest design. From the link: (vintage PvM):

Well, if Behe can call Miller an intelligent design proponent because of his Christian faith, showing that ID really is all about religion, then it seems that it is not more than fair that we call Behe an evolutionist for his acceptance of common descent, and his somewhat self-contradictory claim that after God set it all in motion, evolution could very well have played itself out via purely natural processes of regularity and chance. But if that is the case then ID, which is based on eliminating such natural processes to infer design seems to have lost its claim to it

A classic example of a critic setting up his own strawman which he then valiently destroys. You don't have to eliminate natural processes to infer design. To the contrary, it is natural processes and nature itself that suggest design.

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