Even Microsoft Gets It
by MikeGene
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This entry was posted on Tuesday, February 12th, 2008 at 9:53 pm and is filed under The Rabbit. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site. The trackback link is: http://telicthoughts.com/even-microsoft-gets-it/trackback/
February 13th, 2008 at 5:19 pm
Hi Bradford and Guts,
Hopefully, no one will think I am a big fan of Keiths/Valerie and personally, I think Telic Thoughts would be better without him.
However, the circumstances surrounding his banning demonstrated this was more about damaged ego than dispassionate enforcement of TT policy.
Guts' demand for an apology is consistent with protecting egos.
Putting Raevmo's comment in the memory hole is further evidence.
While I think Stunney tended to add value, his was a case where he flaunted the biased enforcement of TT policy. If an ID critic used Stunney's language once, the repercussions would have been swift and immediate. Stunney posted for a very long time.
I would think it would be a good idea to allow both Stunney and Keiths back on a probationary basis.
Don't ask for an apology, just ask for an agreement that they will follow the rules and understand that we will be less lenient with them specifically because of their history.
For what it is worth.
Comment by Thought Provoker — February 13, 2008 @ 5:19 pm
February 13th, 2008 at 5:37 pm
My demand for an apology was always just a joke, it's something I started talking about because they started making demands themselves, so I countered with a demand for an apology. At first I was completely willing to lift a ban, no strings attached, but then they started making demands. My demanding an apology from Keiths in the thread here at TT was the first ever, and I was just being sarcastic.
But if anything, what this siutation demonstrates is that I have thick skin. Even after all the mocking and harassment, I still was willing to let Keiths comment (again, see the thread in question, it is undeniable), and was about to let him continue commenting if he got back on topic. I warned him once, I warned him twice, etc. But he just couldn't.
I was not involved in the incident with Stunny, so I can't comment.
Comment by Guts — February 13, 2008 @ 5:37 pm
February 13th, 2008 at 5:47 pm
Hi Guts,
Thank you for the explaination.
I suggest the publishing of Mike Gene's book may have changed the tone of Telic Thoughts (for the better in my opinion).
We might want to take advantage of this and consider an amnesty of some of those previously banned. I understand the list isn't very big.
I don't know if there are any that are so unacceptable that they can't be given a second chance.
Telic Thoughts has a reputation of being one of the only pro-ID sites that allow contrary comments. This kind of action would improve that reputation.
Making it probationary would permit a quick reinstatement of the ban. Of course, pro-ID people like Stunney will have to be forced to behave themselves too.
For what it is worth.
Comment by Thought Provoker — February 13, 2008 @ 5:47 pm
February 13th, 2008 at 5:53 pm
Hi TP,
I have recently added new functionality where authors can ban users from specific threads. They can comment on others, and even comment on other threads from the same author, but not on that particular thread where they were banned from.
I expect that this will do away with the need for complete banishment (unless the guy starts harassing all the TT authors). I did suggest that because of this new functinality, we could lift all the bans, since particular authors can now decide for themselves whom they don't want commenting in their threads. But remember that I'm not the owner of TT, all the TT authors have equal authority on this website, so things aren't up to me alone.
Regardless, I think things will be better from here on out because of that functionality.
At any rate, you just reminded me I have a review to write.
Comment by Guts — February 13, 2008 @ 5:53 pm
February 13th, 2008 at 6:16 pm
I've been in meetings where it wasn't just the shit (insults, insinuations, recriminations, personal and professional animosities) that was flying. I've described these meetings positively, as tests of the aerodynamic properties of office furniture.
(Imagine Rock, as usual sullen and resentful of being "called on the carpet," slumped in a chair before the VP's desk explaining why, after the last meeting with your team we have to replace the furniture in the conference room. LOL)
What explains the fact that people take their ideas so seriously that even physical violence is employed to "make a point"?
Maybe that's the only way any human every really "gets the point"?
My object was always to deflect violence (in all its forms) by an attempt to create mutual understanding and even cooperation.
Sheesh! Was I stupid or what?
Comment by Rock — February 13, 2008 @ 6:16 pm
February 13th, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Hi Guts,
It sounds good. Actually very good.
Comment by Thought Provoker — February 13, 2008 @ 7:22 pm
February 13th, 2008 at 9:56 pm
TP, keep in mind that I specifically asked Keiths to refrain from posting further comments in the blog entry in question because he was resurrecting memory hole comments and refusing to keep keep his comments on topic. He ignored the request. It became a question of who was running TT- Keiths or TTers?
Comment by Bradford — February 13, 2008 @ 9:56 pm
February 13th, 2008 at 10:32 pm
I can't believe I'm posting to a thread entitled "Even Microsoft Gets It" - as if. One of the awful-est experiences of my recent life was to work tech support for systems I never wanted to know anything about, for an ISP. You wouldn't believe the cr*p that comes standard…
Anyway, TP. Buddy. Keiths and all his swamp kin are inevitably pushing the envelope whenever they appear (under whatever pseuds). I surely would have thought your experience there taught you what kind of people these are, but you might have been too busy playing their games to notice.
If this place ever turns into "Testosterone Acres" I'm outta here. Don't bring it, you won't get banned. keiths brought it, his peanut gallery has pushed the envelope ever since defending it (or just mirroring it). I lobbied to have him banned months and months before anybody else in the testosterone crowd here caught on. In the final accounting I didn't even vote…
I'd learned how to simply ignore him, though admit up front I also lobbied hard for Guts' new "Ban From Thread" option. This valerie character came in swinging - with a grudge - and hasn't tried very hard to hide the source of his bile. It might be keiths (don't know), it might be any of the other dozen or two throw-aways at the Swamp University of Grump. "They All Go To The Same School." It's more than just an adage.
Good riddance. Don't go out there recruiting any more of 'em, please. You can always play in their sandbox instead.
Comment by Joy — February 13, 2008 @ 10:32 pm
February 13th, 2008 at 10:54 pm
Rock:
But you're a love of my life, Rock! You can bend envelopes when you need to. We too must have our Grumps. You're among the very best… §;o)
Comment by Joy — February 13, 2008 @ 10:54 pm
February 14th, 2008 at 11:31 am
An interesting side effect is that, before I even log in, I am told I am not allowed to comment in a certain thread but am welcome to comment in others.
Comment by One Brow — February 14, 2008 @ 11:31 am
February 14th, 2008 at 12:09 pm
Hi Joy,
When I said of Keiths "I think Telic Thoughts would be better without him" I meant it.
I am not surprised by your reaction and you make a compelling argument.
I fully expect Keiths to continue to do what he has done in the past. It is almost like he can't help himself. His testosterone poisoning appears to be way beyond the toxic level.
Under Guts new method of operation, Keiths contribution per thread may last one or two comments before being banned from it (most likely only one).
I don't know about Stunney. It would be my hope he can do better than that.
I realize this is taking a risk, but I would think Telic Thoughts has a chance of becoming significantly more effective and better. TT can become well known for its williness to hear counter views.
I also expect it to become known for its lack of tolerance for insults and off-topic comments. I suspect and expect the memory hole will get a lot more use in the short term.
My motivation?
1. Doing my part as a Culture Warrior. I think a stalement is bad for my side.
2. Help Telic Thoughts, Mike Gene and The Design Matrix get more visibility.
3. Encourage more knowledgeable discussions (pro and con) about QM.
I also feel a little guilty about outing Keiths/Valerie. Of course, he mostly outed himself, but still. It would help my feelings of ethics if he gets a second chance and blows it on his own (which is what I expect will happen).
And if I get to have Stunney come back as part of the deal, all the better.
Comment by Thought Provoker — February 14, 2008 @ 12:09 pm
February 14th, 2008 at 2:48 pm
One Brow,
Please let me know if you are still getting that message.
Comment by Guts — February 14, 2008 @ 2:48 pm
February 14th, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Is anyone here getting that message?
Comment by Guts — February 14, 2008 @ 2:59 pm
February 14th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
No, now it says I have to be logged in.
Comment by One Brow — February 14, 2008 @ 3:02 pm
February 14th, 2008 at 3:02 pm
Ok, it's fixed then, am I good or am I gooooood ?
Comment by Guts — February 14, 2008 @ 3:02 pm
February 14th, 2008 at 3:03 pm
You are gosh-darn-golly good!
Comment by One Brow — February 14, 2008 @ 3:03 pm
February 14th, 2008 at 3:06 pm
lol
Comment by Guts — February 14, 2008 @ 3:06 pm
February 14th, 2008 at 3:07 pm
Hi Guts,
If you need to test, go ahead and lock me out of…
Now THAT'S a Shameless Plug
…thread. And I will let you know if it worked.
P.S. Telic Thoughts is easily the best blog I know of as far as ease of use is concerned.
You do good work.
Comment by Thought Provoker — February 14, 2008 @ 3:07 pm
February 14th, 2008 at 3:15 pm
Thanks Thought Provoker, much appreciated. I went ahead and banned you from Shameless Plug. Let me know what you see.
Comment by Guts — February 14, 2008 @ 3:15 pm
February 14th, 2008 at 3:39 pm
Hi Guts,
I see…
"You are not allowed to comment on this thread. You are welcome to comment in others."
…in gray.
And it looks like I can't post a comment there (obviously I can post comments here).
By your comment, I take it you understand why I picked that thread. I am grateful to be banned from there.
Thanks
Comment by Thought Provoker — February 14, 2008 @ 3:39 pm