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	<title>Comments on: Another Surprise</title>
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	<link>http://telicthoughts.com/first-animal-on-earth-was-surprisingly-complex/</link>
	<description>An independent blog about intelligent design</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 20:20:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: endoplasmicMessenger</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/first-animal-on-earth-was-surprisingly-complex/#comment-178976</link>
		<dc:creator>endoplasmicMessenger</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Apr 2008 20:47:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/first-animal-on-earth-was-surprisingly-complex/#comment-178976</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Earth's first animal was the ocean-drifting comb jelly, not &lt;strong&gt;&lt;em&gt;the simple sponge&lt;/em&gt;&lt;/strong&gt;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I just finished reading &lt;em&gt;Evolution under the microscope&lt;/em&gt; by David W. Swift.  Remarkable book that I recommend highly.  He happens to reflect on how "simple" the sponge is (p 261-262) in terms of the sophistication required to construct their skeletons:

&lt;blockquote&gt;Of particular note is the construction of spicules in the sponges, because their cells are usually rather independent, but several cells cooperate in spicule formation.  For example, to produce a three-rayed calcareous spicule, three cells partially fuse together, each then divides, a ray of mineral stars to form between the cells of each pair, and then the rays fuse together at precisely determined angles.  Each pair then continues to grow its ray: one cell extending it and the other thickening it.  As one textbook pus it: `Sponge cells are so poorly coordinated in most matters that the relatively complex cellular cooperation in skeleton formation is amazing' (Meglitsch and Schram, Ch. 3).&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So even if the "simple" sponge was the words first animal, they would &lt;em&gt;still&lt;/em&gt; have some splaining to do.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Earth&#039;s first animal was the ocean-drifting comb jelly, not <strong><em>the simple sponge</em></strong></p></blockquote>
<p>I just finished reading <em>Evolution under the microscope</em> by David W. Swift.  Remarkable book that I recommend highly.  He happens to reflect on how &#034;simple&#034; the sponge is (p 261-262) in terms of the sophistication required to construct their skeletons:</p>
<blockquote><p>Of particular note is the construction of spicules in the sponges, because their cells are usually rather independent, but several cells cooperate in spicule formation.  For example, to produce a three-rayed calcareous spicule, three cells partially fuse together, each then divides, a ray of mineral stars to form between the cells of each pair, and then the rays fuse together at precisely determined angles.  Each pair then continues to grow its ray: one cell extending it and the other thickening it.  As one textbook pus it: `Sponge cells are so poorly coordinated in most matters that the relatively complex cellular cooperation in skeleton formation is amazing&#039; (Meglitsch and Schram, Ch. 3).</p></blockquote>
<p>So even if the &#034;simple&#034; sponge was the words first animal, they would <em>still</em> have some splaining to do.</p>
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		<title>By: MikeGene</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/first-animal-on-earth-was-surprisingly-complex/#comment-178950</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeGene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 22:02:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/first-animal-on-earth-was-surprisingly-complex/#comment-178950</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;C'mon, MikeGene - you think you can get away with just posting this without comment?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, six posts earlier, I noted, "I think our understanding of evolution is still at a primitive level."  Nice timing, eh?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>C&#039;mon, MikeGene - you think you can get away with just posting this without comment?</p></blockquote>
<p>Well, six posts earlier, I noted, &#034;I think our understanding of evolution is still at a primitive level.&#034;  Nice timing, eh?</p>
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		<title>By: fifth monarchy man</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/first-animal-on-earth-was-surprisingly-complex/#comment-178946</link>
		<dc:creator>fifth monarchy man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 21:23:45 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;I will venture a third prediction: no flying comb jelly will be found.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 
My predictions are offered as a test of the authors hypotheses where does yours flow from?
&lt;blockquote&gt;So in other words you are predicting that the first animal has no predecessor?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

No just that the predecessor would not simply be a simpler version of it 
&lt;blockquote&gt;thus you are denying that the shared gene sequences between the comb jelly and singled celled organisms are explained by evolution.&lt;/blockquote&gt;
You are reading a lot into a simple prediction 
&lt;blockquote&gt;least it follows from this that you also disagree with Mike's Front-Loaded Evolution theory&lt;/blockquote&gt;

actually I'd expect the predecessor to have the genetic potential for producing things like a nervous system and connecting tissue already present. That is what I thought frontloading was all about. Perhaps I'm mistaken  

Peace</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>I will venture a third prediction: no flying comb jelly will be found.</p></blockquote>
<p>My predictions are offered as a test of the authors hypotheses where does yours flow from?</p>
<blockquote><p>So in other words you are predicting that the first animal has no predecessor?</p></blockquote>
<p>No just that the predecessor would not simply be a simpler version of it </p>
<blockquote><p>thus you are denying that the shared gene sequences between the comb jelly and singled celled organisms are explained by evolution.</p></blockquote>
<p>You are reading a lot into a simple prediction </p>
<blockquote><p>least it follows from this that you also disagree with Mike&#039;s Front-Loaded Evolution theory</p></blockquote>
<p>actually I&#039;d expect the predecessor to have the genetic potential for producing things like a nervous system and connecting tissue already present. That is what I thought frontloading was all about. Perhaps I&#039;m mistaken  </p>
<p>Peace</p>
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		<title>By: Todd Berkebile</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/first-animal-on-earth-was-surprisingly-complex/#comment-178940</link>
		<dc:creator>Todd Berkebile</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 17:08:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/first-animal-on-earth-was-surprisingly-complex/#comment-178940</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;&lt;strong&gt;fmm:&lt;/strong&gt; negative prediction: no "simple" comb jelly will be found.
positive prediction: a comb jelly without connective tissues and a nervous system will not be viable.&lt;/blockquote&gt;  So in other words you are predicting that the first animal has no predecessor?  And thus you are denying that the shared gene sequences between the comb jelly and singled celled organisms are explained by evolution.  Well, at least it follows from this that you also disagree with Mike's Front-Loaded Evolution theory so at least we agree on something ;).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p><strong>fmm:</strong> negative prediction: no &#034;simple&#034; comb jelly will be found.<br />
positive prediction: a comb jelly without connective tissues and a nervous system will not be viable.</p></blockquote>
<p>  So in other words you are predicting that the first animal has no predecessor?  And thus you are denying that the shared gene sequences between the comb jelly and singled celled organisms are explained by evolution.  Well, at least it follows from this that you also disagree with Mike&#039;s Front-Loaded Evolution theory so at least we agree on something ;).</p>
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		<title>By: bFast</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/first-animal-on-earth-was-surprisingly-complex/#comment-178938</link>
		<dc:creator>bFast</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 16:29:19 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>Angry, "So now that this question is answered, we're trying figure out how the cardboard bucket arises from natural selection."

Hey, I thought the cardboard bucket crossed the road?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Angry, &#034;So now that this question is answered, we&#039;re trying figure out how the cardboard bucket arises from natural selection.&#034;</p>
<p>Hey, I thought the cardboard bucket crossed the road?</p>
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		<title>By: angryoldfatman</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/first-animal-on-earth-was-surprisingly-complex/#comment-178937</link>
		<dc:creator>angryoldfatman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 15:54:25 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;b&gt;Doug wrote:&lt;/b&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;1st animal was the ocean-drifting comb jelly, then the 2nd was the zebra. Trotted right out of the ocean. Then the wonderful diverse array of life spawned from there.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That's just like something a stupid creationist would say. Every rational, intelligent person knows that all we need to do is simply look at genotypes to see it was &lt;a href="http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/pattam06.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;the chicken&lt;/a&gt; that was the second animal. Strutted right out of the ocean into a large cardboard bucket. Duh. :roll:

So now that this question is answered, we're trying figure out how the cardboard bucket arises from natural selection.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Doug wrote:</b></p>
<blockquote><p>1st animal was the ocean-drifting comb jelly, then the 2nd was the zebra. Trotted right out of the ocean. Then the wonderful diverse array of life spawned from there.</p></blockquote>
<p>That&#039;s just like something a stupid creationist would say. Every rational, intelligent person knows that all we need to do is simply look at genotypes to see it was <a href="http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones/pattam06.html" rel="nofollow">the chicken</a> that was the second animal. Strutted right out of the ocean into a large cardboard bucket. Duh. <img src='http://telicthoughts.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_rolleyes.gif' alt=':roll:' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
<p>So now that this question is answered, we&#039;re trying figure out how the cardboard bucket arises from natural selection.</p>
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		<title>By: olegt</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/first-animal-on-earth-was-surprisingly-complex/#comment-178936</link>
		<dc:creator>olegt</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 12:08:34 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>fifth monarchy man, 

I will venture a &lt;b&gt;third prediction:&lt;/b&gt; no &lt;i&gt;flying&lt;/i&gt; comb jelly will be found.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>fifth monarchy man, </p>
<p>I will venture a <b>third prediction:</b> no <i>flying</i> comb jelly will be found.</p>
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		<title>By: fifth monarchy man</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/first-animal-on-earth-was-surprisingly-complex/#comment-178935</link>
		<dc:creator>fifth monarchy man</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 12 Apr 2008 11:17:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/first-animal-on-earth-was-surprisingly-complex/#comment-178935</guid>
		<description>From the article quote

&lt;blockquote&gt;comb jelly evolved its complexity independent of other animals after branching off to forge its own path.&lt;/blockquote&gt;end quote:

&lt;strong&gt;negative prediction &lt;/strong&gt;no "simple" comb jelly will be found
&lt;strong&gt;positive prediction &lt;/strong&gt;a comb jelly without  connective tissues and a nervous system will not be viable

&lt;strong&gt;Second prediction &lt;/strong&gt;Zach will say this is not a valid prediction

Peace</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the article quote</p>
<blockquote><p>comb jelly evolved its complexity independent of other animals after branching off to forge its own path.</p></blockquote>
<p>end quote:</p>
<p><strong>negative prediction </strong>no &#034;simple&#034; comb jelly will be found<br />
<strong>positive prediction </strong>a comb jelly without  connective tissues and a nervous system will not be viable</p>
<p><strong>Second prediction </strong>Zach will say this is not a valid prediction</p>
<p>Peace</p>
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		<title>By: kornbelt888</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/first-animal-on-earth-was-surprisingly-complex/#comment-178916</link>
		<dc:creator>kornbelt888</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Guts: Tit mouse to waffle iron.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

To think that billions of years of evolution led to the waffle iron.

That strikes me funny. :smile:</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Guts: Tit mouse to waffle iron.</p></blockquote>
<p>To think that billions of years of evolution led to the waffle iron.</p>
<p>That strikes me funny. <img src='http://telicthoughts.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':smile:' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Guts</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/first-animal-on-earth-was-surprisingly-complex/#comment-178914</link>
		<dc:creator>Guts</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 11 Apr 2008 18:04:26 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;
Mebbe by then, his points will be so self-evident that he won't hafta be anonymous anymore. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Nooooo Then I'd have to throw away all the masks I made for Mike Gene's conferences:

&lt;img src="http://telicthoughts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/MikeGeneAnon.thumbnail.jpg"&lt;/img/&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>
Mebbe by then, his points will be so self-evident that he won&#039;t hafta be anonymous anymore.
</p></blockquote>
<p>Nooooo Then I&#039;d have to throw away all the masks I made for Mike Gene&#039;s conferences:</p>
<p><img src="http://telicthoughts.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/04/MikeGeneAnon.thumbnail.jpg"</img/></p>
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