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	<title>Comments on: &#034;Kansas is hurting science!&#034;</title>
	<atom:link href="http://telicthoughts.com/kansas-is-hurting-science/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://telicthoughts.com/kansas-is-hurting-science/</link>
	<description>An independent blog about intelligent design</description>
	<pubDate>Fri, 21 Nov 2008 22:36:27 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: jon_e</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/kansas-is-hurting-science/#comment-4916</link>
		<dc:creator>jon_e</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Nov 2005 04:50:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=366#comment-4916</guid>
		<description>What these guys are ignoring is that students from non-public and homeschools already have a record of excelling and being admitted to places like Harvard.  The best students probably pay no attention to politics or state-approved science standards, and their ability to grasp concepts and learn science probably goes beyond (or around) the typical curriculum aimed at the average high-schooler.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What these guys are ignoring is that students from non-public and homeschools already have a record of excelling and being admitted to places like Harvard.  The best students probably pay no attention to politics or state-approved science standards, and their ability to grasp concepts and learn science probably goes beyond (or around) the typical curriculum aimed at the average high-schooler.</p>
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		<title>By: TomG</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/kansas-is-hurting-science/#comment-4915</link>
		<dc:creator>TomG</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 14 Nov 2005 02:54:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=366#comment-4915</guid>
		<description>Does Patterson also  think that colleges are looking askance at students from Minnesota, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and New Mexico? Kansas was not the first but &lt;a href="http://www.evolutionnews.org/2005/11/kansas_approves_plan_to_teach.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;the fifth state&lt;/a&gt; to adopt similar science standards. 

And does Patterson really think that Kansas has decided to avoid teaching evolution? You would think a journalist would check his facts first.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Does Patterson also  think that colleges are looking askance at students from Minnesota, Ohio, Pennsylvania, and New Mexico? Kansas was not the first but <a href="http://www.evolutionnews.org/2005/11/kansas_approves_plan_to_teach.html" rel="nofollow">the fifth state</a> to adopt similar science standards. </p>
<p>And does Patterson really think that Kansas has decided to avoid teaching evolution? You would think a journalist would check his facts first.</p>
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		<title>By: Eric Anderson</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/kansas-is-hurting-science/#comment-4902</link>
		<dc:creator>Eric Anderson</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2005 17:58:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=366#comment-4902</guid>
		<description>Mike:

The standards are located on the Kansas State Department of Education website here at &lt;a href="http://www.ksde.org/outcomes/sciencestd.html"&gt;link&lt;/a&gt;

I have only glanced at the 123 pages.  On that cursory glance, I note that there is indeed a fair amount of criticisms/questions about evolution in the additional specifics under the benchmark indicators, at least in grades 8-12.

There is one reference in the standards to irreducible complexity, which is located in the paragraph that questions whether microevolution can be extrapolated to explain macroevolution and the existence of systems that "appear irreducibly complex."

The only reference to the term "intelligent design" is a specific disclaimer on page ii that the standards do not include intelligent design and that the standards neither mandate nor prohibit teachers from discussing intelligent design.

As with all state standards, I am sure there are a number of weaknesses in the way the standards were drafted and a number of things that could be improved, and I will probably try to read through them in more detail at some point, but on a quick review it doesn't look to me like the sky is falling.

Eric</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike:</p>
<p>The standards are located on the Kansas State Department of Education website here at <a href="http://www.ksde.org/outcomes/sciencestd.html">link</a></p>
<p>I have only glanced at the 123 pages.  On that cursory glance, I note that there is indeed a fair amount of criticisms/questions about evolution in the additional specifics under the benchmark indicators, at least in grades 8-12.</p>
<p>There is one reference in the standards to irreducible complexity, which is located in the paragraph that questions whether microevolution can be extrapolated to explain macroevolution and the existence of systems that &#034;appear irreducibly complex.&#034;</p>
<p>The only reference to the term &#034;intelligent design&#034; is a specific disclaimer on page ii that the standards do not include intelligent design and that the standards neither mandate nor prohibit teachers from discussing intelligent design.</p>
<p>As with all state standards, I am sure there are a number of weaknesses in the way the standards were drafted and a number of things that could be improved, and I will probably try to read through them in more detail at some point, but on a quick review it doesn&#039;t look to me like the sky is falling.</p>
<p>Eric</p>
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		<title>By: macht</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/kansas-is-hurting-science/#comment-4901</link>
		<dc:creator>macht</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2005 17:38:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=366#comment-4901</guid>
		<description>Patterson seems to be admitting that the elite schools are going form some sort of "&lt;a href="http://telicthoughts.com/?p=341" rel="nofollow"&gt;policy&lt;/a&gt;" of discrimination based on where the students come from.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Patterson seems to be admitting that the elite schools are going form some sort of &#034;<a href="http://telicthoughts.com/?p=341" rel="nofollow">policy</a>&#034; of discrimination based on where the students come from.</p>
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		<title>By: MikeGene</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/kansas-is-hurting-science/#comment-4900</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeGene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2005 16:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=366#comment-4900</guid>
		<description>LOL.  Get a load of &lt;a href="http://threewaynews.blogspot.com/2005/11/times-they-are-changin-back.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;this guy &lt;/a&gt;fulminating in his own delusions.  

If it is true that the "Kansas board has now flung its students straight into the yawning maw of irrationality," rather that spew rage and rhetoric, try thinking like a scientist.  Use this "observation" to develop a testable hypothesis about the Kansas student population.  Then test.  But why expect the self-appointed "pro-science" crowd to think like scientists.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>LOL.  Get a load of <a href="http://threewaynews.blogspot.com/2005/11/times-they-are-changin-back.html" rel="nofollow">this guy </a>fulminating in his own delusions.  </p>
<p>If it is true that the &#034;Kansas board has now flung its students straight into the yawning maw of irrationality,&#034; rather that spew rage and rhetoric, try thinking like a scientist.  Use this &#034;observation&#034; to develop a testable hypothesis about the Kansas student population.  Then test.  But why expect the self-appointed &#034;pro-science&#034; crowd to think like scientists.</p>
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		<title>By: MikeGene</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/kansas-is-hurting-science/#comment-4898</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeGene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2005 15:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=366#comment-4898</guid>
		<description>Krauze: &lt;blockquote&gt; Whether students from Kansas can excel should be a very simple question to answer: Treat them as you would students from any other state, and in 5 or 10 years, see if students from Kansas are doing significantly worse than students from other states. Indeed, this would be the scientific way of answering the question, as opposed to relying on fears and prejudices.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Exactly.  Perhaps the critics are afraid to approach this as a scientific problem because they are afraid their rhetoric will be unsupported by the data.  For example, the ACT has a science test and here are the &lt;a href="http://www.act.org/news/data/05/states.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;2005 results&lt;/a&gt;. 

The avg Kansas score has been 21.6 and 21.5 for 2005 and 04, respectively. If Patterson is correct, those scores should begin to plummet.  We could also compare Kansas to neighboring states (Nebraska, Oklahoma and Missouri) whose scores are similar.  If Patterson is correct, the scores in those states should hold steady while Kansas plummets.  

BTW, didn't Ohio make some similar change a few years ago?  Their ACT science scores have not changed (although we only have two data points thus far).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Krauze:<br />
<blockquote> Whether students from Kansas can excel should be a very simple question to answer: Treat them as you would students from any other state, and in 5 or 10 years, see if students from Kansas are doing significantly worse than students from other states. Indeed, this would be the scientific way of answering the question, as opposed to relying on fears and prejudices.</p></blockquote>
<p>Exactly.  Perhaps the critics are afraid to approach this as a scientific problem because they are afraid their rhetoric will be unsupported by the data.  For example, the ACT has a science test and here are the <a href="http://www.act.org/news/data/05/states.html" rel="nofollow">2005 results</a>. </p>
<p>The avg Kansas score has been 21.6 and 21.5 for 2005 and 04, respectively. If Patterson is correct, those scores should begin to plummet.  We could also compare Kansas to neighboring states (Nebraska, Oklahoma and Missouri) whose scores are similar.  If Patterson is correct, the scores in those states should hold steady while Kansas plummets.  </p>
<p>BTW, didn&#039;t Ohio make some similar change a few years ago?  Their ACT science scores have not changed (although we only have two data points thus far).</p>
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		<title>By: Krauze</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/kansas-is-hurting-science/#comment-4896</link>
		<dc:creator>Krauze</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2005 15:03:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=366#comment-4896</guid>
		<description>Hi Mike,

&lt;em&gt;"Okay, can someone please tell me what the Kansas curricula now states so I can determine of it merits discrimination?"&lt;/em&gt;

Actually, I have a post coming up about this.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Mike,</p>
<p><em>&#034;Okay, can someone please tell me what the Kansas curricula now states so I can determine of it merits discrimination?&#034;</em></p>
<p>Actually, I have a post coming up about this.</p>
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		<title>By: Krauze</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/kansas-is-hurting-science/#comment-4895</link>
		<dc:creator>Krauze</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2005 15:02:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=366#comment-4895</guid>
		<description>Hi Bipod,

&lt;em&gt;"Krauze...the frightening truth is that these people sincerely believe what they say AND they believe that what they believe is obviously true."&lt;/em&gt;

To me, this would only be frightening if I thought there was a real chance of it happening. &lt;a href="http://www.arn.org/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=001354;p=0" rel="nofollow"&gt;Remember&lt;/a&gt; when the editor of &lt;em&gt;Scientific American&lt;/em&gt; wanted university presidents to refuse "admission to high school graduates who were not taught evolution as a fact in their preparatory curricula" They blew him off. I have difficulty imagining these presidents turning down students (a.k.a. paying customers), because of what Kansas high schools are teaching.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Bipod,</p>
<p><em>&#034;Krauze&#8230;the frightening truth is that these people sincerely believe what they say AND they believe that what they believe is obviously true.&#034;</em></p>
<p>To me, this would only be frightening if I thought there was a real chance of it happening. <a href="http://www.arn.org/cgi-bin/ubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=001354;p=0" rel="nofollow">Remember</a> when the editor of <em>Scientific American</em> wanted university presidents to refuse &#034;admission to high school graduates who were not taught evolution as a fact in their preparatory curricula&#034; They blew him off. I have difficulty imagining these presidents turning down students (a.k.a. paying customers), because of what Kansas high schools are teaching.</p>
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		<title>By: Joe G</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/kansas-is-hurting-science/#comment-4894</link>
		<dc:creator>Joe G</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2005 14:56:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=366#comment-4894</guid>
		<description>What Matt doesn't realize is that his ignorant diatribe &#38; lies do more to hurt the people of Kansas then any change could possibly accomplish.

But this begs the question- How is the dogmatic indoctrination to NDE in any way helpful to students?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What Matt doesn&#039;t realize is that his ignorant diatribe &amp; lies do more to hurt the people of Kansas then any change could possibly accomplish.</p>
<p>But this begs the question- How is the dogmatic indoctrination to NDE in any way helpful to students?</p>
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		<title>By: MikeGene</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/kansas-is-hurting-science/#comment-4893</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeGene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 13 Nov 2005 14:52:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=366#comment-4893</guid>
		<description>Okay, can someone please tell me what the Kansas curricula now states so I can determine of it merits discrimination?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Okay, can someone please tell me what the Kansas curricula now states so I can determine of it merits discrimination?</p>
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