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	<title>Comments on: Pink and Blue</title>
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	<link>http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/</link>
	<description>An independent blog about intelligent design</description>
	<pubDate>Sun, 23 Nov 2008 12:37:56 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: Nick</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137722</link>
		<dc:creator>Nick</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Sep 2007 13:56:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137722</guid>
		<description>IIRC, blue (roughly equivalent to Carolina tarheel blue) was considered the appropriate color for little girls, while little boys wore red (associated with military uniforms).  The switch may have occurred as a result of the craze for putting boys in sailor suits during the Victorian era.

This is, however, a very vague recollection and I can't seem to confirm it online.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IIRC, blue (roughly equivalent to Carolina tarheel blue) was considered the appropriate color for little girls, while little boys wore red (associated with military uniforms).  The switch may have occurred as a result of the craze for putting boys in sailor suits during the Victorian era.</p>
<p>This is, however, a very vague recollection and I can&#039;t seem to confirm it online.</p>
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		<title>By: angryoldfatman</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137578</link>
		<dc:creator>angryoldfatman</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2007 21:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137578</guid>
		<description>&lt;b&gt;nullasalus wrote:&lt;/b&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;Has anyone ever done a sociological or evolutionary psychological study of evolutionary psychologists?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I skimmed some EP stuff and noticed a few patterns. I'd share my hypotheses, but I don't need &lt;em&gt;more&lt;/em&gt; guys in white coats looking for me. :lol:</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>nullasalus wrote:</b></p>
<blockquote><p>Has anyone ever done a sociological or evolutionary psychological study of evolutionary psychologists?</p></blockquote>
<p>I skimmed some EP stuff and noticed a few patterns. I&#039;d share my hypotheses, but I don&#039;t need <em>more</em> guys in white coats looking for me. <img src='http://telicthoughts.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_lol.gif' alt=':lol:' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Wonders For Oyarsa</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137573</link>
		<dc:creator>Wonders For Oyarsa</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2007 18:58:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137573</guid>
		<description>I remember taking a social psychology class during my undergrad.  The grad student teaching the class shared his research with us, which in turn instilled a prejudice against social psychology that I have still not overcome.

The idea was to test whether or not southerners or northerners (in the US) are more aggressive.  The subject would come in for the experiment, and undergo various tests that reflect aggression (blood pressure, heart rate, etc).  As the subject neared the door to begin the tests, a man (presumably) working on an AC unit would "accidentally" bump into him and drop, and then proceed to chew him out, cussing up a storm.  The southerners proved to be far more agitated and aggressive following such treatment.

The grad student, keeping a straight face, went on to talk of the various factors that might have caused this - the harsh conditions of the American south, requiring a more rugged people to survive, etc.  

The elephant in the living room, of course, is that southerners have a different culture than northerners - one with more emphasis on politeness and courtesy, and less on efficiency.  To make any conclusions on the biological aggressiveness of southerners vs. northerners based on such an experiment is as absurd as having the guy cuss someone out in French and then concluding that French people are more aggressive than Americans.  This is so obvious to those with even a shallow knowledge of the culture that it shouldn't need saying - but apparently it does.

But I think this is an example of a deeper problem with such explanations - namely that they look at man as being born into nature rather than history.  They look at man as an animal, while ignoring or relativizing that which makes men unique from animals.  To evoke evolutionary and biological explanations for things as if culture doesn't exist is sheer idiocy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I remember taking a social psychology class during my undergrad.  The grad student teaching the class shared his research with us, which in turn instilled a prejudice against social psychology that I have still not overcome.</p>
<p>The idea was to test whether or not southerners or northerners (in the US) are more aggressive.  The subject would come in for the experiment, and undergo various tests that reflect aggression (blood pressure, heart rate, etc).  As the subject neared the door to begin the tests, a man (presumably) working on an AC unit would &#034;accidentally&#034; bump into him and drop, and then proceed to chew him out, cussing up a storm.  The southerners proved to be far more agitated and aggressive following such treatment.</p>
<p>The grad student, keeping a straight face, went on to talk of the various factors that might have caused this - the harsh conditions of the American south, requiring a more rugged people to survive, etc.  </p>
<p>The elephant in the living room, of course, is that southerners have a different culture than northerners - one with more emphasis on politeness and courtesy, and less on efficiency.  To make any conclusions on the biological aggressiveness of southerners vs. northerners based on such an experiment is as absurd as having the guy cuss someone out in French and then concluding that French people are more aggressive than Americans.  This is so obvious to those with even a shallow knowledge of the culture that it shouldn&#039;t need saying - but apparently it does.</p>
<p>But I think this is an example of a deeper problem with such explanations - namely that they look at man as being born into nature rather than history.  They look at man as an animal, while ignoring or relativizing that which makes men unique from animals.  To evoke evolutionary and biological explanations for things as if culture doesn&#039;t exist is sheer idiocy.</p>
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		<title>By: Randy</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137565</link>
		<dc:creator>Randy</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2007 17:16:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137565</guid>
		<description>Here's a sociological explanation: I believe that it's an issue of advertising and merchandising, rather than evolution.  I used to work in a department store, and part of my job was to set the shelves with merchandise according to a planned schematic.  In the toy department, most female toys came in pink packaging and most male toys came in blue, purple, silver and green packaging.  I think it's clear that in our culture at least, pink is a comodity that is consumed by females, and blue to males.  I would guess that it's different in other non-Westerm cultures, and if it's not, it's due to the interpenetration of Western culture.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#039;s a sociological explanation: I believe that it&#039;s an issue of advertising and merchandising, rather than evolution.  I used to work in a department store, and part of my job was to set the shelves with merchandise according to a planned schematic.  In the toy department, most female toys came in pink packaging and most male toys came in blue, purple, silver and green packaging.  I think it&#039;s clear that in our culture at least, pink is a comodity that is consumed by females, and blue to males.  I would guess that it&#039;s different in other non-Westerm cultures, and if it&#039;s not, it&#039;s due to the interpenetration of Western culture.</p>
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		<title>By: MikeGene</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137562</link>
		<dc:creator>MikeGene</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2007 15:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137562</guid>
		<description>Hi keiths,

&lt;blockquote&gt;There doesn't. It might be a spandrel, or, in the unlikely event that we were designed, it might be a design feature.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I definitely lean toward the spandrel.  Yet even if the evolutionary pyschologists insist on it being an adaptation,  why in the world think &lt;em&gt;this&lt;/em&gt; is the correct explanation?  In fact, the researchers themselves raised another possibility: 

&lt;blockquote&gt;An alternative explanation for the evolution of trichromacy is the need to discriminate subtle changes in skin color due to emotional states and social-sexual signals [9]; again, females may have honed these adaptations for their roles as care-givers and "˜empathizers' [10]. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

What I find most interesting is the way this research reinforces common stereotypes that are deeply embedded in our culture, helping us see one place where culture drives science.  If we lived in a warrior culture, we could imagine another adaptive explanation "“ females were part of the hunting party and helped to track wounded (bleeding) prey.  That might also explain why they get so impatient when men don't ask for directions. LOL.

&lt;blockquote&gt;And Hurlbert, to her credit, makes it clear where the science ends and speculation begins &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Indeed.  Which poses a problem for those who dichotomize the world into "science vs. religion" or "faith vs. reason"  Hurlbert's fantasy-like speculation is included in the &lt;em&gt;Current Biology&lt;/em&gt; publication as some type of add-on.  Is fanciful speculation science or does &lt;em&gt;Current Biology &lt;/em&gt;publish non-science?

&lt;blockquote&gt;Your own money fixation is not universal. Anyway, Hurlbert can hardly sell the information, having published it already. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

Well, adding the evolution angle helped get this rather trivial study some widespread, favorable mainstream media attention.  I can imagine that might help a bit when writing future grants, can't you?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi keiths,</p>
<blockquote><p>There doesn&#039;t. It might be a spandrel, or, in the unlikely event that we were designed, it might be a design feature.</p></blockquote>
<p>I definitely lean toward the spandrel.  Yet even if the evolutionary pyschologists insist on it being an adaptation,  why in the world think <em>this</em> is the correct explanation?  In fact, the researchers themselves raised another possibility: </p>
<blockquote><p>An alternative explanation for the evolution of trichromacy is the need to discriminate subtle changes in skin color due to emotional states and social-sexual signals [9]; again, females may have honed these adaptations for their roles as care-givers and &#034;˜empathizers&#039; [10]. </p></blockquote>
<p>What I find most interesting is the way this research reinforces common stereotypes that are deeply embedded in our culture, helping us see one place where culture drives science.  If we lived in a warrior culture, we could imagine another adaptive explanation &#034;“ females were part of the hunting party and helped to track wounded (bleeding) prey.  That might also explain why they get so impatient when men don&#039;t ask for directions. LOL.</p>
<blockquote><p>And Hurlbert, to her credit, makes it clear where the science ends and speculation begins </p></blockquote>
<p>Indeed.  Which poses a problem for those who dichotomize the world into &#034;science vs. religion&#034; or &#034;faith vs. reason&#034;  Hurlbert&#039;s fantasy-like speculation is included in the <em>Current Biology</em> publication as some type of add-on.  Is fanciful speculation science or does <em>Current Biology </em>publish non-science?</p>
<blockquote><p>Your own money fixation is not universal. Anyway, Hurlbert can hardly sell the information, having published it already. </p></blockquote>
<p>Well, adding the evolution angle helped get this rather trivial study some widespread, favorable mainstream media attention.  I can imagine that might help a bit when writing future grants, can&#039;t you?</p>
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		<title>By: inunison</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137559</link>
		<dc:creator>inunison</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2007 14:49:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137559</guid>
		<description>nullasalus,

try David Stove: &lt;a href="http://www.amazon.com/Darwinian-Fairytales-Selfish-Heredity-Evolution/dp/1594032009/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-9383523-2539345?ie=UTF8&#38;s=books&#38;qid=1188657996&#38;sr=8-1" rel="nofollow"&gt;Darwinian Fairytales&lt;/a&gt;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>nullasalus,</p>
<p>try David Stove: <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Darwinian-Fairytales-Selfish-Heredity-Evolution/dp/1594032009/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1/102-9383523-2539345?ie=UTF8&amp;s=books&amp;qid=1188657996&amp;sr=8-1" rel="nofollow">Darwinian Fairytales</a></p>
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		<title>By: keiths</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137554</link>
		<dc:creator>keiths</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2007 11:43:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137554</guid>
		<description>Mike asks:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Why in the world does there have to be an adaptive explanation that supposedly accounts for such color preferences?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There doesn't.  It might be a spandrel, or, in the unlikely event that we were designed, it might be a design feature.

&lt;blockquote&gt;The only thing the researchers actually measured is the biological difference between male and females. And that's where the science ended.&lt;/blockquote&gt; 

And Hurlbert, to her credit, makes it clear where the science ends and speculation begins:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Evolution may have driven...&lt;/blockquote&gt;
&lt;blockquote&gt;I can only speculate...&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Joy wrote:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Um"¦ so they can sell the info to clothing/gizmo marketers and big advertising firms?&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Joy,

Your own money fixation is not universal.  Anyway, Hurlbert can hardly sell the information, having published it already.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Honestly, I've never liked pink. Not even for my daughter (looks horrid on blondes, almost as bad as yellow), my favorite color was always blue, tending to green/aqua.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

But who's accusing you of being a typical female of the species?

Stunney:
&lt;blockquote&gt;Er, many languages do not have separate terms for blue and green. So I wonder if that might throw a spanner in the works.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

It appears that Hurlbert tried to mitigate any such effects in her experimental design:
&lt;blockquote&gt;In the test, young adult men and women were asked to select, as rapidly as possible, their preferred color from each of a series of paired, colored rectangles.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

The stimuli were nonverbal, as were the responses.  Subjects were not asked to name the colors and were encouraged to respond as rapidly as possible.  The experimental description also implies that the color samples were selected evenly from throughout the color space, rather than being clustered around hues for which English has a distinct name.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Mike asks:</p>
<blockquote><p>Why in the world does there have to be an adaptive explanation that supposedly accounts for such color preferences?</p></blockquote>
<p>There doesn&#039;t.  It might be a spandrel, or, in the unlikely event that we were designed, it might be a design feature.</p>
<blockquote><p>The only thing the researchers actually measured is the biological difference between male and females. And that&#039;s where the science ended.</p></blockquote>
<p>And Hurlbert, to her credit, makes it clear where the science ends and speculation begins:</p>
<blockquote><p>Evolution may have driven&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<blockquote><p>I can only speculate&#8230;</p></blockquote>
<p>Joy wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>Um&#034;¦ so they can sell the info to clothing/gizmo marketers and big advertising firms?</p></blockquote>
<p>Joy,</p>
<p>Your own money fixation is not universal.  Anyway, Hurlbert can hardly sell the information, having published it already.</p>
<blockquote><p>Honestly, I&#039;ve never liked pink. Not even for my daughter (looks horrid on blondes, almost as bad as yellow), my favorite color was always blue, tending to green/aqua.</p></blockquote>
<p>But who&#039;s accusing you of being a typical female of the species?</p>
<p>Stunney:</p>
<blockquote><p>Er, many languages do not have separate terms for blue and green. So I wonder if that might throw a spanner in the works.</p></blockquote>
<p>It appears that Hurlbert tried to mitigate any such effects in her experimental design:</p>
<blockquote><p>In the test, young adult men and women were asked to select, as rapidly as possible, their preferred color from each of a series of paired, colored rectangles.</p></blockquote>
<p>The stimuli were nonverbal, as were the responses.  Subjects were not asked to name the colors and were encouraged to respond as rapidly as possible.  The experimental description also implies that the color samples were selected evenly from throughout the color space, rather than being clustered around hues for which English has a distinct name.</p>
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		<title>By: stunney</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137543</link>
		<dc:creator>stunney</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2007 08:21:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137543</guid>
		<description>From the article:

&lt;blockquote&gt;About the universal preference for blue, "I can only speculate," said Hurlbert. "I would favor evolutionary arguments again here. Going back to our 'savannah' days, we would have a natural preference for a clear blue sky, because it signaled good weather. Clear blue also signals a good water source."&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Er, many languages do not have separate terms for blue and green.   So I wonder if that might throw a spanner in the works.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>From the article:</p>
<blockquote><p>About the universal preference for blue, &#034;I can only speculate,&#034; said Hurlbert. &#034;I would favor evolutionary arguments again here. Going back to our &#039;savannah&#039; days, we would have a natural preference for a clear blue sky, because it signaled good weather. Clear blue also signals a good water source.&#034;</p></blockquote>
<p>Er, many languages do not have separate terms for blue and green.   So I wonder if that might throw a spanner in the works.</p>
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		<title>By: nullasalus</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137542</link>
		<dc:creator>nullasalus</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2007 08:01:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137542</guid>
		<description>Has anyone ever done a sociological or evolutionary psychological study of evolutionary psychologists?

I'd pay for a book written on the subject. Heck, I'd pay just to read the reviews of such a thing. :grin:</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Has anyone ever done a sociological or evolutionary psychological study of evolutionary psychologists?</p>
<p>I&#039;d pay for a book written on the subject. Heck, I&#039;d pay just to read the reviews of such a thing. <img src='http://telicthoughts.com/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_biggrin.gif' alt=':grin:' class='wp-smiley' /></p>
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		<title>By: Krauze</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137540</link>
		<dc:creator>Krauze</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 01 Sep 2007 06:32:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/pink-and-blue/#comment-137540</guid>
		<description>And the reason nobody wears black is because it is associated with death and decay. Wait a minute... lots of people wear black? Well, I'm sure there's an explanation for that as well.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>And the reason nobody wears black is because it is associated with death and decay. Wait a minute&#8230; lots of people wear black? Well, I&#039;m sure there&#039;s an explanation for that as well.</p>
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