One of the more controversial statements made by Richard Dawkins in The God Delusion is that raising a young child as Christian, Muslim, Jew, etc., should be considered a form of child abuse……

No need to make Muslim girls go bare-headed to school just because wearing a scarf identifies them as Muslim. No need to forbid crosses or stars of David because nobody would think of harming or belittling a Christian or Jewish child just for being Christian or Jewish.

Dawkins says he doesn't want children identified by religion, but many children DO identify religiously. He's aiming for a homogenous culture, which to my mind isn't a whole lot different than dreaming of a homogenous Europe populated by blue-eyed blondes of the Master Race.

By the way, my godparents both had tattoos on their wrists and lost their entire families to the ovens. They also lost their future family, because she was sterilized by Nazis. So I do know what they'd think about the rabid hate-speech and concerted efforts at demonization of people like PZ Meyers and Richard Dawkins. My godparents, like my parents, are dead now. I am not. My charge - like theirs - is to never forget. Never Again.

…I just wanted to point out that this is a pretty uncharitable way of interpreting what she said.

"Uncharitable" is par for the course. Watching PZ go off on a fire and brimstone rant about the 'religious problem' can be entertaining, but reading the comments of his amen choir often takes a strong stomach. Camps and sterilization aren't the most radical solutions to the 'religious problem' I've seen coming from Testosterone Acres.

But who takes PZ seriously? He's just the comic relief.

One wonders how the millions that suffered and died in concentration camps would have felt about people like you comparing their horrible fate to a fascinating evolution class or a vibrant atheist rights seminar favored by an ordinary Minnesota biology professor.

I'm pretty sure that's not what Joy was referring to by the statement you quoted. It's her prerogative to do so, but I just wanted to point out that this is a pretty uncharitable way of interpreting what she said.

I am here at TT because it's about the only ID blog where one can actually argue without being banned or overwhelmed by the YECs.)

As there are a lot of Darwinist blogs where IDers and other critics can be banned or overwhelmed. A question that occurs to me, is whether TT, and other moderate forums, are anymore conducive to productive dialogue than the more polarized forums.

I'm not sure they are.

PZ has endorsed the idea of concentration camps and forced sterilization for religious believers.

One wonders how the millions that suffered and died in concentration camps would have felt about people like you comparing their horrible fate to a fascinating evolution class or a vibrant atheist rights seminar favored by an ordinary Minnesota biology professor.

Hear, hear. Though we disagree on much, I'd like to congratulate the TTers for maintaining a site on which dissent has a place.

Although we probably agree about very little, I must say that I really admire the way you have carried yourself. It's great to have someone like you commenting here.

I'm not claiming that noone can overcome religious indoctrination. People can and do. I was one of them. The point is that indoctrination makes people more likely to stick with a religion in adulthood, compared to how likely they would be to choose it if they had not been indoctrinated in the first place, but were simply examining and choosing among belief systems from the perspective of a mature, non-indoctrinated adult.

[sigh] Keith, a lot of us do go looking around. As soon (or sooner) than our parents would have allowed, if they could have controlled our thoughts/beliefs. Which they couldn't.

I am one who came home. I have no problem admitting that 'home' was where I felt most comfortable due to my upbringing, which is the very thing I rebelled against.

Don't belittle or demean me by telling me I'm stupid not to have chosen your path when I went looking. That's complete garbage. I don't see 100% eye-to-eye on a lot of the tenet/dogma stuff. But I learned in the course that these things are a bit less than 'writ in stone' no matter what they tell 'outsiders'. That was kinda neat to figure out, but not neat enough to salvage my tithes to any congregation or denomination. I contribute. Probably more than my share all things tallied, but I'm not keeping score. Neither is the IRS keeping that score, so… you want I should report to you? YOU are gods/God? §;o)

Every kid I've ever known (including me and my several siblings and all my friends in several countries and states growing up) had a "rough childhood." Big damned deal. The 21st Century "Culture of Victimhood" is just so overblown most of the time that it's pure Prozac. Which isn't all that good for you, y'know.

So here I am. It doesn't have much to do with my scientific preferences, or that which I scientifically know. It has a lot to do with my relationships with family, extended family, friends, acquaintances, and public appearances. All of which are far more important in the day-to-day process of me living my life than your opinions about evolution vs. ID could ever be. To me.

It wouldn't hurt any of you to internalize this fact about life on planet earth.