Does this make personal responsibility an illusion? Well the Bible seems to be happy to keep this in tension, when speaking from our perspective we are responsible, when speaking from a cosmological perspective He controls all things. I know this ain't neat but how ever you come at this question neatness ain't possible.

You can say that again! I decided that whether I actually have free will or not (and even if I do, it is obviously pretty heavily constrained), it feels like I do, and I should probably live my life as if I do. It may be my destiny to walk in front of a bus, that doesn't keep me from avoiding walking in front of buses.

Personally as a Christian theist who believes in Biblical revelation, I accept predestination Eph 1:4-5, 11. Does this make personal responsibility an illusion? Well the Bible seems to be happy to keep this in tension, when speaking from our perspective we are responsible, when speaking from a cosmological perspective He controls all things. I know this ain't neat but how ever you come at this question neatness ain't possible.

Eric looks as if this discussion if nothing else has awakened the philosopher in you!

I know what I said sounds kind of like philosophy, but I think science might ultimately come to a similar understanding of time. This is from an article by Paul Davies:

Nothing in physics corresponds to the passage of time. Indeed, physicists insist that time doesn't flow at all; it merely is.

Einstein once said, "Past, present, and future are only illusions, even if stubborn ones." But the problem is, if time is actually an illusion, what does that have to say about free will? If the future has in some sense already happened, how to I control my own destiny?

"I can back up all my opinions with scripture"

This is where we differ onething, my opinions are informed and shaped by scripture first. IOW I don't reject original sin, sub atonement and other unpalatable aspects because of their clear testimony within scripture. Also I have not chosen people to interpret it for me but I have gone to it myself and have come to the same conclusion as many others, this pertains to the perspecuity of the scriptures.

From the above quote it is clear you have an opinion about reality, human condition, salvation and then look for confirmation of it from the scriptures. I don't trust my opinions re human condition and salvation because then I get sucked into a world of relativism in which revelation is lost.

I have seen that idea put forward by a number of different people and contexts, mostly spiritual ones.

For me at least, the concepts of time, eternity, causation and free will are very difficult. I cannot even form a coherent opinion on free will, except to be intuitively in favor of it.

Willo,

I can back up all my opinions with scripture. You have not chosen the bible over me, you have chosen people to interpret it for you.

Willo

"It is me who listens directly to my inner conduit to God"

LOL so this how it works you have a direct line to God you know the inner workings of the divine! This gives you the authority to tell me and anyone else who is listening who God is, how he acts, and how he saves, excuse me for questioning you, pardon me for choosing the Bible over you onething the prophet of our age.

One more comment before this thread gets closed, which isn't really an answer or response to anyone's express or implied question. But I'd like some thoughts on this: What if the entire universe, every event from the beginning to the end of time (if there is such a thing) has in some sense already happened? In other words, "time" is actually an illusion, an attempt on the part of human perception to make sense of experience. Scientific American did a single-topic issue on time back in September 2002, some articles of which touched on the idea of time being an illusion.

Think of it this way: imagine a novel. You're reading the 150th page of a 200-page novel. You don't know how it's going to end. But the end of the novel has already happened; you just don't know the ending yet.

What if the universe is the same way? I guess you could call this radical causality, or radical predestination. But I wonder what the implications would be for the concept of free will, which is a subject of this thread in some sense. I mean, I sure feel like I have at least some kind of free will.

But do I?