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	<title>Comments on: Steve Fuller, or: How to Ignore an Argument</title>
	<atom:link href="http://telicthoughts.com/steve-fuller-or-how-to-ignore-an-argument/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://telicthoughts.com/steve-fuller-or-how-to-ignore-an-argument/</link>
	<description>An independent blog about intelligent design</description>
	<pubDate>Thu, 21 Aug 2008 20:23:02 +0000</pubDate>
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		<title>By: edarrell</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/steve-fuller-or-how-to-ignore-an-argument/#comment-11723</link>
		<dc:creator>edarrell</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 23 Apr 2006 07:18:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=615#comment-11723</guid>
		<description>The real problem with applying Fuller's recognition that science benefits from a proliferation of hypotheses that are well grounded (not theories, if you're talking about the unproven stuff), and a proliferation of theories (when you get to the 'stuff proven so well we don't need testimony on it anymore'), is that intelligent design is quite the opposite of a good hypothesis, and especially theory. ID doesn't stimulate ideas.  ID is like a wet blanket on a thin flame of just-lit piece of kindling. 

Teaching kids to pose idiocy, wild-fliers or WAGS to oppose well-proven theory that all kids should know, is proven to make them stupid.  If there IS a proliferation of hypotheses, teach them.  But it is pedagogic malpractice to teach hooey just for the sake of suggesting criticism.  Teaching false critique is not the way to learn good critique.

Fuller's argument would make sense were he talking about well-evidenced and well thought out contests, like the fight between Steady State and Big Bang prior to Wilson's and Penzias's fortuitous discovery of the echo that disproved Steady State and supported Big Bang.

Intelligent design so far is vacuous as hypothesis, and completely dead as theory. If Fuller's argument is correct, ID still doesn't get in the door -- it doesn't measure up to Fuller's standards.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The real problem with applying Fuller&#039;s recognition that science benefits from a proliferation of hypotheses that are well grounded (not theories, if you&#039;re talking about the unproven stuff), and a proliferation of theories (when you get to the &#039;stuff proven so well we don&#039;t need testimony on it anymore&#039;), is that intelligent design is quite the opposite of a good hypothesis, and especially theory. ID doesn&#039;t stimulate ideas.  ID is like a wet blanket on a thin flame of just-lit piece of kindling. </p>
<p>Teaching kids to pose idiocy, wild-fliers or WAGS to oppose well-proven theory that all kids should know, is proven to make them stupid.  If there IS a proliferation of hypotheses, teach them.  But it is pedagogic malpractice to teach hooey just for the sake of suggesting criticism.  Teaching false critique is not the way to learn good critique.</p>
<p>Fuller&#039;s argument would make sense were he talking about well-evidenced and well thought out contests, like the fight between Steady State and Big Bang prior to Wilson&#039;s and Penzias&#039;s fortuitous discovery of the echo that disproved Steady State and supported Big Bang.</p>
<p>Intelligent design so far is vacuous as hypothesis, and completely dead as theory. If Fuller&#039;s argument is correct, ID still doesn&#039;t get in the door &#8212; it doesn&#039;t measure up to Fuller&#039;s standards.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/steve-fuller-or-how-to-ignore-an-argument/#comment-11548</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 21 Apr 2006 04:05:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=615#comment-11548</guid>
		<description>"&lt;i&gt;For example, the eminent IDist Robert Newman hypothesized that a demon can control one pig, but unless he can obtain the cooperation of a demon, I don't know how that hypothesis could be tested.&lt;/i&gt;"

Pigs are hard to control.  I've tried.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#034;<i>For example, the eminent IDist Robert Newman hypothesized that a demon can control one pig, but unless he can obtain the cooperation of a demon, I don&#039;t know how that hypothesis could be tested.</i>&#034;</p>
<p>Pigs are hard to control.  I&#039;ve tried.</p>
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		<title>By: Aagcobb</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/steve-fuller-or-how-to-ignore-an-argument/#comment-10495</link>
		<dc:creator>Aagcobb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 04 Apr 2006 14:49:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=615#comment-10495</guid>
		<description>Hi, Bilbo 
 &lt;blockquote&gt;The difference is that geocentrism has been falsified. ID hasn't been.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

ID is careful not to propose any falsifiable theories; that doesn't make it science.  For example, the eminent IDist Robert Newman hypothesized that &lt;a href="http://tinyurl.com/ppqgo" rel="nofollow"&gt;a demon can control one pig&lt;/a&gt;, but unless he can obtain the cooperation of a demon, I don't know how that hypothesis could be tested.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, Bilbo </p>
<blockquote><p>The difference is that geocentrism has been falsified. ID hasn&#039;t been.</p></blockquote>
<p>ID is careful not to propose any falsifiable theories; that doesn&#039;t make it science.  For example, the eminent IDist Robert Newman hypothesized that <a href="http://tinyurl.com/ppqgo" rel="nofollow">a demon can control one pig</a>, but unless he can obtain the cooperation of a demon, I don&#039;t know how that hypothesis could be tested.</p>
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		<title>By: Bilbo</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/steve-fuller-or-how-to-ignore-an-argument/#comment-10233</link>
		<dc:creator>Bilbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 18:46:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=615#comment-10233</guid>
		<description>What is it about Aagcobb that reminds me of Julbon in reverse?  I wonder if they're the same age.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>What is it about Aagcobb that reminds me of Julbon in reverse?  I wonder if they&#039;re the same age.</p>
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		<title>By: MatthewCromer</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/steve-fuller-or-how-to-ignore-an-argument/#comment-10217</link>
		<dc:creator>MatthewCromer</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 31 Mar 2006 04:56:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=615#comment-10217</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Paley's arguments should be taught, but in a historical context, in which Darwin carefully studied them and demonstrated why he was wrong.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

Laff.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Paley&#039;s arguments should be taught, but in a historical context, in which Darwin carefully studied them and demonstrated why he was wrong.</p></blockquote>
<p>Laff.</p>
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		<title>By: macht</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/steve-fuller-or-how-to-ignore-an-argument/#comment-10202</link>
		<dc:creator>macht</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 21:30:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=615#comment-10202</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;You're right, the history of science should be taught, but should geocentrism be taught as though its possible that the sun really is revolving around the earth?&lt;/blockquote&gt;
Geocentrism should be taught from the perspective of the people who believed it, giving the reasons why it was believed.  Then the arguments for current theories can be given in the proper context.  If you are worried about children believing in geocentrism after hearing these things then perhaps the evidence/arguments for heliocentrism aren't as strong as I thought.  I'd say the same thing about ID.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>You&#039;re right, the history of science should be taught, but should geocentrism be taught as though its possible that the sun really is revolving around the earth?</p></blockquote>
<p>Geocentrism should be taught from the perspective of the people who believed it, giving the reasons why it was believed.  Then the arguments for current theories can be given in the proper context.  If you are worried about children believing in geocentrism after hearing these things then perhaps the evidence/arguments for heliocentrism aren&#039;t as strong as I thought.  I&#039;d say the same thing about ID.</p>
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		<title>By: Bilbo</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/steve-fuller-or-how-to-ignore-an-argument/#comment-10196</link>
		<dc:creator>Bilbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=615#comment-10196</guid>
		<description>Aagcobb: "If we teach children that the sun really might revolve around the earth, or that ID is an alternate explanation to evolution, we're just filling their minds with junk."

The difference is that geocentrism has been falsified. ID hasn't been.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Aagcobb: &#034;If we teach children that the sun really might revolve around the earth, or that ID is an alternate explanation to evolution, we&#039;re just filling their minds with junk.&#034;</p>
<p>The difference is that geocentrism has been falsified. ID hasn&#039;t been.</p>
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		<title>By: Aagcobb</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/steve-fuller-or-how-to-ignore-an-argument/#comment-10194</link>
		<dc:creator>Aagcobb</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:56:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=615#comment-10194</guid>
		<description>Hi macht,

&lt;blockquote&gt;You laugh, but there are plenty of good reasons to teach about geocentrism and other items in the history of science. &lt;/blockquote&gt;

You're right, the history of science should be taught, but should geocentrism be taught as though its possible that the sun really is revolving around the earth?  Similarly, Paley's arguments should be taught, but in a historical context, in which Darwin carefully studied them and demonstrated why he was wrong.  If we teach children that the sun really might revolve around the earth, or that ID is an alternate explanation to evolution, we're just filling their minds with junk.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi macht,</p>
<blockquote><p>You laugh, but there are plenty of good reasons to teach about geocentrism and other items in the history of science. </p></blockquote>
<p>You&#039;re right, the history of science should be taught, but should geocentrism be taught as though its possible that the sun really is revolving around the earth?  Similarly, Paley&#039;s arguments should be taught, but in a historical context, in which Darwin carefully studied them and demonstrated why he was wrong.  If we teach children that the sun really might revolve around the earth, or that ID is an alternate explanation to evolution, we&#039;re just filling their minds with junk.</p>
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		<title>By: macht</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/steve-fuller-or-how-to-ignore-an-argument/#comment-10193</link>
		<dc:creator>macht</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=615#comment-10193</guid>
		<description>&lt;blockquote&gt;Maybe Fuller's right, but there's no reason to single out evolutionary theory; other theories ought to be challenged as well, just in case they are wrong. &lt;/blockquote&gt;
I agree.

&lt;blockquote&gt;Why, for example, shouldn't students learn about geocentrism?  It might inspire one of them to show the sun really does revolve around the earth!&lt;/blockquote&gt;
You laugh, but there are &lt;a href="http://prosthesis.blogspot.com/2004/09/how-should-science-be-taught.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;plenty&lt;/a&gt; of &lt;a href="http://prosthesis.blogspot.com/2004/12/teaching-science-as-history.html" rel="nofollow"&gt;good reasons&lt;/a&gt; to teach about geocentrism and other items in the history of science.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>Maybe Fuller&#039;s right, but there&#039;s no reason to single out evolutionary theory; other theories ought to be challenged as well, just in case they are wrong. </p></blockquote>
<p>I agree.</p>
<blockquote><p>Why, for example, shouldn&#039;t students learn about geocentrism?  It might inspire one of them to show the sun really does revolve around the earth!</p></blockquote>
<p>You laugh, but there are <a href="http://prosthesis.blogspot.com/2004/09/how-should-science-be-taught.html" rel="nofollow">plenty</a> of <a href="http://prosthesis.blogspot.com/2004/12/teaching-science-as-history.html" rel="nofollow">good reasons</a> to teach about geocentrism and other items in the history of science.</p>
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		<title>By: Bilbo</title>
		<link>http://telicthoughts.com/steve-fuller-or-how-to-ignore-an-argument/#comment-10192</link>
		<dc:creator>Bilbo</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 30 Mar 2006 20:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://telicthoughts.com/?p=615#comment-10192</guid>
		<description>If it was an astronomy class, I think it would be imperative for them to learn the geocentric theory, and how it was repaired for centuries.  And also why the Greeks (especially Aristotle) rejected heliocentrism -- no one could envision the earth spinning so quickly without everybody falling off.  And how this continued to be the major objection to it.  So that until Newton came up with a new physics, geocentrism continued to be the accepted theory.  

But if this is a biology class, I think ID would be the showcase theory.  We would want to make sure arguments for and against it's being a scientific hypothesis are presented.  And we would want the students to have to really think it through.  I don't know if high school biology teachers would be sophisticated enought to present both sides.  So I don't know if it could be properly taught.  Another reason to wait until college.  Or homeschool.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If it was an astronomy class, I think it would be imperative for them to learn the geocentric theory, and how it was repaired for centuries.  And also why the Greeks (especially Aristotle) rejected heliocentrism &#8212; no one could envision the earth spinning so quickly without everybody falling off.  And how this continued to be the major objection to it.  So that until Newton came up with a new physics, geocentrism continued to be the accepted theory.  </p>
<p>But if this is a biology class, I think ID would be the showcase theory.  We would want to make sure arguments for and against it&#039;s being a scientific hypothesis are presented.  And we would want the students to have to really think it through.  I don&#039;t know if high school biology teachers would be sophisticated enought to present both sides.  So I don&#039;t know if it could be properly taught.  Another reason to wait until college.  Or homeschool.</p>
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