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The other ID opponents

by Krauze

I just stumbled over an old article, titled "The Other ID Opponents". It seems that intelligent design critics are getting some strange bedfellows: Young-earth creationists! Yes, the people who're supposedly using intelligent design as their trojan horse are openly criticizing it: "The most recent attack on Genesis, one that to AiG's [Answers in Genesis] dismay is accepted and promoted by evangelicals, is Intelligent Design."

"I don't think the ID movement would be where it is even now if it was not for the general creation movement," says Ken Ham, president of AiG. "They're riding on the coattails of the creation movement."

This is probably true in the sense that many people buying books and in other ways creating a market for intelligent design could just as well have been buying books on creationism. However, by divorcing itself from defending a particular Biblical account, intelligent design has also accomplished things that creationism could never have accomplished. For example, it is a fact that without intelligent design, there would be no "Krauze". There wouldn't be any front-loading either. And knowing what I do about my fellow bloggers, I doubt that there would be a "Telic Thoughts".

These young-earth creationists understand the issue much better than most critics. As Terry Mortenson from AiG puts it: "Most if not all of the ID books are published by evangelical Christian publishers, which are marketing to an evangelical audience. And our concern is that [although] in those books there are good design arguments, there are statements sprinkled in them implying or stating openly that Genesis isn't important."

Yes, most supporters of intelligent design are Christians. But the source of an argument isn't waht matters, it's the contents. And, as Mortenson points out, intelligent design doesn't try to defend Genesis or any other religious text. That's why supporters of intelligent design can also be evolutionists (such as myself), whereas creationists can't.

But as with regular ID critics, there are also some things these creationists misunderstand:

"Those of us who believe in a literal Genesis have a history, a history concerning the Fall, a history concerning the Flood. So when we look at this world, we're looking at a fallen world. It's not God's fault there are tsunamis. "¦ Death is not God's fault." However, by only discussing an unnamed designer, Ham says, flaws in creation must be attributed to that designer.

When talking about "tsunamis" being the work of a designer, Ken Ham makes it clear that he thinks the designer must be behind every feature of nature. Yet this is not something that would follow if intelligent design was correct. In his book Cosmos, Carl Sagan suggests using genetically modified microorganisms to terraform Mars, melting the ice and producing oxygen. If this were to happen, we would say that life on Mars had been intelligently designed. But would this mean that every future climate change that happened on Mars, whether good or bad, should be attributed to us? Hardly.

What's great about intelligent design is that it asks a question not asked by any other field of enquiry: Is it possible to infer design without having any experience with the designer? So, let's put on our ID Hat and see if there's anything about tsunamis that indicate that they are designed. Neither irreducible complexity nor specified complexity - the two most popular ID concepts - seem to apply very well to tsunamis. Furthermore, we'll have a hard time describing a tsunami in teleological terms. "The function of a tsunami is to…" What? Kill people? Move a lot of water? Wash sediments into the ocean? Provide footage for news reports? I think it's safe to say that the case for tsunamis being designed isn't very strong.

But what about bad biological designs? Let's take the type III secretory system, which is a syringe-like structure that some bacteria use to inject toxins into their hosts. Here, the case for design is much stronger than for tsunamis. Unlike tsunamis, the secretory system is an irreducibly complex molecular machine, composed of twenty different gene-products. Furthermore, its function is obvious: Pumping substances into other cells. So, a system that causes human disease seems to be designed.

As Ken Ham pointed out, there's nothing in intelligent design that precludes the design of structures that harm humans (although it would raise the question of why the designer would make designs that harmed each other); weapon designers do this all the time. But let's add evolution to the mix. First of all, not all bacteria with a secretory system use it to inject toxins. For example, the bacterium Rhizobium use its secretory system to transfer nitrogen to plants, which return the favor by providing the bacterium with nutrients. So the secretory system can also be used to establish symbiotic relationsships. Furthermore, it is now clear that the secretory system is related to another favorite of intelligent design - the bacterial flagellum - and that it was the flagellum that gave rise to the secretory system, not the other way around. The flagellum contains a pump to construct the whip-like part, and the secretory system is best seen as the pump of a flagellum, with most of the other parts cut away. So the secretory system is probably the descendent of a design, not the actual design itself.

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This entry was posted on Friday, May 26th, 2006 at 12:27 pm and is filed under Creationism, Intelligent Design. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site. The trackback link is: http://telicthoughts.com/the-other-id-opponents/trackback/

7 Responses to “The other ID opponents”

  1. Eric Anderson Says:
    May 26th, 2006 at 12:43 pm

    Krauze, I think you are on the right track, and make some good points.

    I am not sure the attempt to minimize "bad" design by pointing out that not all bacteria use it to inject toxins is particularly compelling. Further, although the secretory system may be a degenerate system from the flagellum, that is only one example in a long list of biological systems that harm other biological systems, and that could thus be viewed as "bad" or "evil" designs. I think the stronger position by far is to simply identify design where we see it (I think you take this approach generally, but you seemed to be gingerly sidestepping it a bit in your post). I personally have no problem with the idea that a designer would create designs that are physically harmful.

  2. Comment by Eric Anderson — May 26, 2006 @ 12:43 pm

  3. Mung Says:
    May 26th, 2006 at 3:28 pm

    "They're riding on the coattails of the creation movement."

    For me, ID is a way to let go of the creationist coattails, not to ride them. I found YEC to be intellectually unsatisfying. Unfortunately many "ID" arguments aren't much better, but I attribute that to creationists riding the coattails of ID, not the other way around.

    The function/purpose of a tsunami is to give unbelievers a way to attribute evil to God.

  4. Comment by Mung — May 26, 2006 @ 3:28 pm

  5. Krauze Says:
    May 26th, 2006 at 3:38 pm

    Hi Eric,

    My point may not have come across very well in my post, so let me reiterate. I don't think there's any logical problem with a designer making things that harm other designs. As I said, we humans do it all the time. However, we should keep in mind that not everything is designed, and that some designs may change their function over time. My post wasn't an attempt to justify an argument for all designs being "good" (we're at a far too early stage in the investigation to say anything about this), but was a note of caution to those pointing at anything bad in nature and attributing it to the designer.

  6. Comment by Krauze — May 26, 2006 @ 3:38 pm

  7. Bilbo Says:
    May 26th, 2006 at 4:35 pm

    I think YECs major objection to an old earth is that it entails the existence of pain and death before the human Fall occurred, which was the traditional explanation for natural evil. Dembski has proposed one answer: God knew that humans would freely choose to sin, and created a world that would be the result of sin. I'm not sure I can buy his answer. It would still make God the direct creator of evil, which I find theologically objectionable. My own suggestion (and C.S.Lewis's and probably Tolkien's), is the angelic Fall. If angels (or an angel) had been "in charge" of the earth (or solar system, or galaxy, or universe), and had sinned, then there would be evil consequences as a result. This would include a history of life that did not go according to God's original plan, resulting in pain and death. Perhaps God's plan B was for humans to retake control of earth from Satan, and restore it to a paradisal state. By humans sinning, they fall under the domination of Satan, and God must opt for plan C. Just speculation here. But it's a view that helps me make sense of the facts.

  8. Comment by Bilbo — May 26, 2006 @ 4:35 pm

  9. bFast Says:
    May 26th, 2006 at 5:16 pm

    "I don't think the ID movement would be where it is even now if it was not for the general creation movement," says Ken Ham, president of AiG. "They're riding on the coattails of the creation movement."

    I, for one, gave up solidly on "the creationist movement" dispite religious motivation to accept that view. I simply found that the works produced did not even withstand a light cross-check by a non-scientist. Creation Science and Scientific Creationism are determined to be robust with reguards to Biblical interpretation, and willing to be less robust with reguards to science. The ID movement, is determined to be robust with reguards to science, allowing Biblical interpretation the same freedom that Biblical interpretation is permitted with reguards to evolution. (Let us not forget that thiestic evolution is an attempt to unify NDE evolution with Biblical interpretation.)

    Though it is true that my first studies into this debate involved the creationist literature, I fully and completely abandoned that literature prior to discovering good ID literature.

    Is my story unique?

  10. Comment by bFast — May 26, 2006 @ 5:16 pm

  11. Eric Anderson Says:
    May 26th, 2006 at 6:59 pm

    However, we should keep in mind that not everything is designed, and that some designs may change their function over time.

    and

    My post wasn't an attempt to justify an argument for all designs being "good" (we're at a far too early stage in the investigation to say anything about this), but was a note of caution to those pointing at anything bad in nature and attributing it to the designer.

    Well put, Krauze, on both points. I think we're on the same page.

    Cheers.

  12. Comment by Eric Anderson — May 26, 2006 @ 6:59 pm

  13. Mung Says:
    May 27th, 2006 at 9:26 am

    Is my story unique?

    Not at all. This is why I am so disappointed by "Intelligent Design" books that are no different really in substance than their creationist precursors. Of course, it's not really possible to control who publishes what and under what label, but like I said, it seems to me that it is the creationists riding the coattails of ID.

  14. Comment by Mung — May 27, 2006 @ 9:26 am

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