Thank you for sharing that.

Apparently I had a mistaken understanding of what a degreed pharmacist's salary was. I had presumed it was more than a pipefitter's (even if he was a foreman).

I considered my family to be on the border between straight middle class and upper middle class specifically because we could afford a new car every 5 to 10 years and I got to go to college.

Both of our outlooks on life appear to be shaped by our past.

I think I understand a little better where you are coming from.

Not to get into a class war, but it sounds like you were upper middle class.

You have absolutely no clue what my life is like, or has been like. Please don't pretend that you do.

We were not upper middle class! We lived in an old house (built about 1900) that was a perennial fixer upper. When I was born we were still heating coal which Dad had to hand shovel into the furnace on cold winter mornings. We never had a new car and the cars we did own (only one at a time, BTW) always showed signs of age and rust. Our neighborhood was not an upper middle class neighborhood. Behind where we lived was a lumber yard, next to that a feed mill. Immediately to the west of us, 2 doors down, was a small plating mill and beyond that was the train track, freight depot and switch yard. That is not where people of any kind of means chose to live.

I believe both of my older sisters got through college at least in part because of scholarships. My sister Carol was (and still is) quite gifted academically and graduated from college magna cum laude. But still, both had to work a lot of hours doing menial jobs to help make ends meet while attending college.

It was a struggle for me to get me through college. Once again, my dad didn't have a lot of money and my college years were a particularly hard time for my family financially.

I still remember being told in my sophomore year by my school's financial office that unless the tuition bills were paid I would not be allowed to come back in the fall. I called my Dad and offered to drop out for a year or two but he insisted that I stick it out, that he would try to work something out. Eventually, I was able to get a student loan and better, more lenient, terms with the school and was able, somehow, to graduate on time.

When my dad died he left us nothing, not even our house or any of the money from the house. It had to be sold to pay off a number of large debts. His investment in our lives, how ever, had occurred completely while he was still alive.

Where did this valuing a college education come from? Probably from my grandfather who arrived in this country from southern Russia around 1899 with a young wife, infant daughter and little else. Grandpa and grandma became homesteaders who had a farm first in North Dakota and then in the province of Alberta in Canada.

The homestead in Canada was in particular a very modest place. The house was a log cabin that Grandpa built himself. It consisted of two rooms"”not 2 bedrooms"”two rooms total. Furthermore, there was no electricity, no phone or running water and the nearest town was over 30 miles away. It took Grandpa 3 days, with horse and wagon, to go into town– one day to get there, one day to do business, and a day to come back home. He had to make this trip about once a month even in the winter. He almost died one year in blizzard. Miraculously his horses somehow found their way home in white out conditions. Unable to see a thing, grandpa had given them free rein, miles from nowhere, leaving his fate in God's hands. (Or the horses hooves if you want to believe that.) By the way, there were no doctors living out on the prairie. My grandparents had to deal (and did deal) with medical emergencies on their own. Two adults and 10 children of various ages lived in this two room cabin year round for almost 5 years. My father who was born in 1914 made it 11.

Just after my father was born Grandpa sold his land in Alberta and moved his family to New York state where he acquired a small dairy farm. My Grandpa was careful to take care of all his 12 children, (a 12th child was born in NY after they moved) making sure even as adults that they became gainfully employed. This included even a couple daughters who remained single, moved away from the farm and pursued careers before they thought seriously about getting married.

However, for his 2 youngest children Grandpa had enough money saved that he could send them to college. Ironically, this occurred during the great depression. Apparently, farm foreclosures occurring all around him, wasn't enough to stop or discourage him. My father graduated in either 1936 or 1937 and my aunt Ester a few years later. My dad became a pharmacist and my aunt a school teacher. My aunt continued to teach for most of the rest of her life, even after she got married.

Looking back on it now it looks like my grandfather had some rather progressive ideas for his day. Of course, I don't think he would have ever thought of himself as progressive in any sort of ideological sense. He simply wanted what was best for his children whether they be a son or a daughter. (Well, so much for that stereotype.)

Of my Dad's immediate children all six have earned college degrees. Two of my sisters picked up their degrees more or less on their own.

Of my Dad's six immediate grandchildren 3 have earned college degrees while 2 more have just started their college education.

The last two, my niece and nephew, are relevant to our discussion because they also have had a very humble upbringing. My brother in law works construction which has its feast and/or famine periods. Their home is a modest 2 bedroom trailer which if you think about it logistically doesn't work out very well for a teenage son, teenage daughter and 2 parents. It means someone goes without a bedroom. Nevertheless, both children are going to college on scholarships.

Once again my point is that my family has never been very well off financially, but we are rich in values which have been passed down from generation to generation. Expectations do not come from money they come from our hopes, dreams and the values of hard work, love and perseverance. Like or not, the Christian faith has a lot to say about those kinds of things.

Tell it to everyone who went to college on the GI bill.

Good point.

But that usually meant risking going to Vietnam. You could avoid it if your family had connections (e.g. Bush).

Thought Provoker: In the 1960s, college was only for the rich kids, not the sons of blue-collar workers and especially not for their daughters.

Tell it to everyone who went to college on the GI bill. (I'm told that one could actually afford college on it at the time.)

Not to get into a class war, but it sounds like you were upper middle class.

When I asked about kids who didn't take college preparatory classes in high school you responded with…

Is college for everybody? You're a nobody unless you go to college? What about people that become mechanics, or carpenters or plumbers?

No, college wasn't for blue-collar workers. The expectation wasn't there.

How do you correct the problem of low expectations?

Personally?
By becoming an stubborn, arrogent person thus allowing me to overcome the group-think induced low expectations I grew up with.

As for others…

I recommend critical and independent thinking resisting dogma and group-think.

I was tempted to let this go (and maybe I should have) but you wrote…

However, you have been expressing a lot of Dawkins-like hostility about religion in general and specifically about Christianity, using very pejorative language in doing so. It sounds more than personal to me. In other words, people should reject God because you have had some bad experiences with religion.

When have I EVER suggested someome should "reject God"

I may have biased understanding of historic and current events, but I believe them to be accurate and encourage people to counter my hypotheses.

For example, do you think my understanding and reaction to the Slidell case is inappropriate? If so, why?

>It is interesting that my description of my childhood neighborhood somehow means I am making a sweeping generalization. I tried not to exaggerate.

However, you have been expressing a lot of Dawkins-like hostility about religion in general and specifically about Christianity, using very pejorative language in doing so. It sounds more than personal to me. In other words, people should reject God because you have had some bad experiences with religion. The purpose of my post was simply to say I had a very different, and indeed positive, experience. I can understand your bad experience, can you understand that there are people out there, like me, whose upbringing and personal religious faith has been a very positive influence in their life. Furthermore, these people are not crazy fanatics who are trying to kill others. I know a few of them and I would argue that they are really good people who sincerely want to do some positive good in the world.

>My father was a blue-collar pipefitter. I lived in a lilly white suburb surrounded by blue collar workers who worked hard, drank beer and treated their children like they were treated. They believed in God because that was what they were taught to believe.

But their behavior, in my opinion, did not reflect a genuine belief in God. Jesus taught that a genuine belief in God results in a change in heart: from one where a person is motivated by self-centeredness to one where he is genuinely motivated to put the needs of others above himself. Furthermore, Jesus taught that this interest (or love) towards others extends beyond ones immediate family, religious or ethnic group. That was his whole point of his story of the "Good Samaritan." Are you saying that men that you grew up with, who did didn't attend church, got drunk and abused their wives and children genuinely believed in God? Exactly which God the one that Jesus talked about and referred to as his heavenly Father? Jesus condemned religious hypocrisy. Read the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) if you don't believe me.

>I don't think there were any deacons in our neighborhood (much less a chairman of a board of deacons). However, I don't know for sure because that wasn't something we talked about. Being proud of yourself or your family only got you teased and, sometimes, shunned.

We weren't blue collar, but we certainly weren't wealthy either. My father worked as a pharmacist. I would describe us as an average middle class family. It wasn't that my father bragged about what he did, people just knew that knew was a morally responsible human being. Reputations are the kind of things that people notice and talk about.

>Maybe, I haven't conveyed how low the expectations were in our neighborhood. Did you take college preparatory classes in high school? Did you ever wonder what kind of kids didn't?

Is college for everybody? You're a nobody unless you go to college? What about people that become mechanics, or carpenters or plumbers?
How do you correct the problem of low expectations?

>In the 1960s, college was only for the rich kids, not the sons of blue-collar workers and especially not for their daughters.

Again we weren't wealthy either but my parents sent three of their daughters and me their only son to college, and another daughter to nursing school. (I have five sisters all together"”What a bummer! Thank God I had a Dad.) However, we were rich in other ways"”values that got passed down generation to generation. BTW two of my sisters completed their college education in the early sixties. I graduated from college in 1973.

It is interesting that my description of my childhood neighborhood somehow means I am making a sweeping generalization. I tried not to exaggerate.

My father was a blue-collar pipefitter. I lived in a lilly white suburb surrounded by blue collar workers who worked hard, drank beer and treated their children like they were treated. They believed in God because that was what they were taught to believe.

I don't think there were any deacons in our neighborhood (much less a chairman of a board of deacons). However, I don't know for sure because that wasn't something we talked about. Being proud of yourself or your family only got you teased and, sometimes, shunned.

Maybe, I haven't conveyed how low the expectations were in our neighborhood. Did you take college preparatory classes in high school? Did you ever wonder what kind of kids didn't?

In the 1960s, college was only for the rich kids, not the sons of blue-collar workers and especially not for their daughters.

I was away for a few days and was unable either follow or participate in the discussion. However, after getting caught up on my reading I noticed something worth responding to in some of the things you wrote. You said:

My verbal picture of the neighborhood where I grew up with was a subtle suggestion of why I view religion as a crutch "¦
I have little doubt that on Sundays their WASP preacher would tearfully explain to a audience of mostly mothers of how another lost sole had been saved through the kindness of good Christians followed by the passing of the collection plate to fund mercenaries to bring Christ to the godless poor in other countries.
The mothers, caring deeply for their children, would make sure her children grew up being good Christians by having their intoxicated fathers beat them with their belts (or worse) if they dared use the lords name in vain.
The whole atmosphere was one of low expectations because, as long as we had faith in the lord, Jesus Christ, everything else was secondary. Don't question, don't think, just do and think like everyone else.
No we weren't taught to be suicidal killing machines, but it isn't a mystery as to how leaders can have such loyal followers (as long as the leaders profess they are guided by the lord, Jesus Christ).

I found that ironic because the only dad that I knew that took a belt to his sons was Mr. Mac_ who lived 3 doors down from us. The Mac_s were Unitarian Universalists. My upbringing, on the other hand, was a traditional Baptist upbringing. My father who not only attended church with us regularly, but served as the chairman of the board of deacons, never ever spanked me. (My mom had occasionally hand spanked me when I was very young.) Furthermore, I can't even remember my parents being overly strict with me. In fact, several times I was involved in the same mischief that got my playmates grounded and my parents did nothing. They had something of a "˜boys will be boys' attitude when it came to me, their only son, and certain sorts of things. (As long as it wasn't too bad or dangerous)

I knew that my playmates Billy and Doug (aka Critter) Mac_ got it with the belt because they told me about it, in somewhat graphic and chilling detail. They also told me about having their mouth's washed out with soap whenever their parents heard them using swear words. They were amazed when I told them that my parents never washed out my mouth with soap. Why? Looking back at it one reason I can see is that there was no swearing in our house, by me or anyone else. It wasn't a rule so much as that was just the way we were. Furthermore, I never ever heard my parents swear, even when they were entertaining other adults downstairs after they had sent us kids upstairs to bed. (And from my room it was easy to hear what was going on down stairs.)

Mr. and Mrs. Mac_ and my parents, despite their differences of religion and outlook, got along very well. Indeed, one of my fondest memories of the Mac's was the Christmas party that they threw every year. Despite Mr. Mac_'s excesses with the belt they were a loving and fun loving family that was fun to be with and to be around. In other words, they knew how to throw a party. And, Mr. Mac_ was always the life of the party. I was also aware the Mr. and Mrs. Mac_ had a much looser set of personal moral standards (beginning with drinking, smoking and loose language) than my parents had. BTW is that what it means to be progressive?

The Mac_s no doubt were trying to raise their children following the "do as we say, not as we do" standard; my parents, on the other hand, (who were by no means without their faults) simply tried to set a good example. As a matter of fact, there were no set of rules posted on any of the walls any where in our house. Neither was my parents teaching, a matter of long winded, formal and/or structured lectures, but simply a matter of setting a good example and some casual dinner table banter.

Does this fit your stereotype? Is my upbringing really one of those authoritarian patriarchal upbringings that the ivory tower types talk about? Then where are the authoritarian rules, that "god awful" belt, and the physical and verbal abuse? Of course, I pretty much know the answer to that, because you seem to be someone who will never be able to see beyond your own self imposed stereotypes.

You wrote…

I really appreciate your recent comments.

You're welcome.