6 Responses to “There He Goes”

1. Thought Provoker Says:
   January 9th, 2008 at 8:26 pm

   FYI, from STUART HAMEROFF, JACK TUSZYNSKI paper titled…

   Quantum states in proteins and protein assemblies: The essence of life?

   There is some question as to whether centrioles, cilia and flagella (i.e. flagellates) could have evolved purely by natural selection, as they are said to exhibit "irreducible complexity".58 Darwin said in The Origin of Species:

   "If it could be demonstrated that any complex organ existed which could not possibly have been formed by numerous, successive, slight modifications, my theory would absolutely break down."

   Innumerable small, randomly chosen steps of incremental changes in proteins to form tubulin, and tubulin to form microtubules, and microtubules to form centrioles, cilia and flagella would seem to offer no advantages "along the way". Consequently centrioles, cilia and flagella have been suggested as examples of "intelligent design".58 Designed by what, or by whom? This question leads some to "Creationism". But there is also the view that intelligent design reflects the type of Platonic information embedded in the Planck scale suggested by Roger Penrose.59,60 If so, then via quantum states living systems are in touch with a deeper reality. Does this imply that quantum information devices, for example, would also be "alive"? Not necessarily, as only organic molecules and cytoskeletal protein lattices may have the inherent flexibility to harness ambient energy for quantum coherent states, interact with the Planck scale via quantum gravity processes, and utilize photons as phase-ordered matter.

Comment by Thought Provoker — January 9, 2008 @ 8:26 pm

2. Thought Provoker Says:
   January 9th, 2008 at 8:51 pm

   Hi All,

   If you will excuse a rerun. Here is a cryptic summary I gave previously for The Third Choice, ID Version. It violates NOMA in my opinion. However, since I don't know the Truth, it is a valid possibility. Here are the main points"¦

   1. There is no such thing as randomness (see The Magic of ID)

   2. The universe has purpose. At the very least its purpose is to be consistent with itself.

   3. The universe has a timeless intelligence (mind) that results from the interconnected quantum effects, including the quantum effects that gives rise to consciousness at the cellular level.

   4. The interconnected quantum effects are both casual and retrocasual since time is just another dimension in space-time.

   5. The quantum effects are not deterministic because they are not algorithmic. Their complexity creates an illusion of randomness.

   6. The universe, and the life in it, is a result of purposeful design emanating from this timeless intelligence.

   7. Understanding things like choice and free will are complicated by our view of time. It is difficult to fully conceptualize timeless decision making. Does it make a conscious decision it already made based on non-local quantum information from the future?

   8. Don't ask who or what designed the timeless designer unless you have an answer to the inherent "turtles all the way down" yourself.

   Empirical evidence of design comes from the hypothesis' predictions like expectations that conscious decisions are effected by future events (see Libet).

Comment by Thought Provoker — January 9, 2008 @ 8:51 pm

3. chunkdz Says:
   January 10th, 2008 at 7:16 pm

   Has anybody here ever drunk whale's milk?

Comment by chunkdz — January 10, 2008 @ 7:16 pm

4. Bradford Says:
   January 10th, 2008 at 8:03 pm

   Has anybody here ever drunk whale's milk?

   Have you ever seen a whale suckle?

Comment by Bradford — January 10, 2008 @ 8:03 pm

5. magnan Says:
   January 13th, 2008 at 6:04 pm

   Thought Provoker, concerning your "cryptic summary": nobody has commented, but this has at least some validity in my opinion. It correlates with much of the "perennial wisdom" as explicated by Huxley, but more importantly has at least some empirical evidence in its favor. A couple of comments:

   Item 3 - "The universe has a timeless intelligence (mind) that results from the interconnected quantum effects, including the quantum effects that gives rise to consciousness at the cellular level."

   It seems to me that such concepts of conscious awareness arising from quantum mechanical effects in neural cellular microtubules are still subject to the various arguments based on the inherent ontological difference between the qualia of conscious experience and matter in motion (or any conceivable operation of fields and forces).

   I also find your item 8 a little problematic : "Don't ask who or what designed the timeless designer unless you have an answer to the inherent "turtles all the way down" yourself." Not having an answer does not invalidate the need for a concept of ultimate origin.

Comment by magnan — January 13, 2008 @ 6:04 pm

6. Thought Provoker Says:
   January 13th, 2008 at 7:37 pm

   Hi Magnan,

   Thank you for your comment.

   You wrote…

   It seems to me that such concepts of conscious awareness arising from quantum mechanical effects in neural cellular microtubules are still subject to the various arguments based on the inherent ontological difference between the qualia of conscious experience and matter in motion (or any conceivable operation of fields and forces).

   I don't disagree with you. I am not sure whether consciousness simply uses quantum processing and/or senses external quantum effects and/or is a direct artifact of quantum mechanics and/or is embodied as part of the quantum whole that makes up the universe.

   You also wrote…

   I also find your item 8 a little problematic : "Don't ask who or what designed the timeless designer unless you have an answer to the inherent "turtles all the way down" yourself." Not having an answer does not invalidate the need for a concept of ultimate origin.

   We gain wisdom through our searching, not by having answers.

Comment by Thought Provoker — January 13, 2008 @ 7:37 pm

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